Prayer As a Place of Peace with Pastor Daryl Horton

Daryl Horton is the senior pastor at Mt. Zion Baptist Church in Austin, Texas. He explains why community is a key tennant of his faith and why it's so critical that we preserve Black churches. We also talk about the death of his brother, getting the call to ministry and how the church can be a critical voice in the conversation about racial justice.

You can learn more about Pastor Horton's work here: https://www.mtzion-baptist.org/content.cfm?id=577

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Sarah Cavanaugh: I am Sarah Cavanaugh, and this is Peaceful Exit, the podcast where we talk to creatives about life and death.

I had the honor and such a great time talking with Pastor Daryl Horton. He's a leader in the Baptist Church and part of our faith series. He has such a compelling perspective on the role of the church in a community, in service to others in conversation about racial justice and in the lives of its members.

Even if church isn't right for you, we can all benefit from having vibrant, active institutions in our community. We all need our third places. And for me, it's a big learning on different faiths and how they handle death.

Sarah Cavanaugh: I'm super excited about today and welcome to Peaceful Exit.

[00:00:57] Pastor Daryl Horton: Thank you. I'm excited to be with you.

[00:00:59] Sarah Cavanaugh: I have a whole series now of faith leaders, as we spoke about, and I would love to just get your, in a nutshell, kind of the Baptist 101. What makes your faith unique?

[00:01:15] Pastor Daryl Horton: Uh, I think some of the things that make us unique as Baptist is the autonomy that we have within our denominational structure.

And so as Baptist, we do things together. We do belong to national and statewide denominational efforts, but at the same time, we try to make sure that every individual Baptist church has autonomy to do what they believe is in their best interest to do. And so we don't have that. Uh, hierarchical leadership within the Baptist church.

I think one of the others that's a foundation for us is the idea of baptism. And so we believe that within the Bible, we follow what Jesus did and that he was actually baptized in the Jordan River. He went under the water and came out. Those are two big ones that kind of show up for me.

[00:01:55] Sarah Cavanaugh: That's so great.

Thank you. And if, if someone is listening and they're not a Christian, what would be the sort of description of a Christian faith.

[00:02:06] Pastor Daryl Horton: So I think so for the Christian faith, what we believe is that as human beings, we have a fallen nature. We have a sinful nature and that God put it in his eternal plan that he wanted to draw humankind back into relationship with him.

And so the way he did that is that he sent his only son, Jesus, to come in the form of humankind. Uh, gave his life as a sacrifice where he died, uh, at a place called Calvary and his sacrificial death was the atonement for our sins. And so, uh, we believe that if you put your faith in him and the faith in what he did on the cross, that you'll be saved, you'll be forgiven of your sins.

And that way you have a eternal life in heaven with God.

[00:02:45] Sarah Cavanaugh: Beautiful. I've heard people refer to you as reverend or pastor. Is there a preference, or is there a difference in those terms?

[00:02:52] Pastor Daryl Horton: So the short version of the story is that within our tradition, especially the African American tradition, an individual discerns a calling to ministry from God.

And so once you discern that calling, you become mentored by your pastor, and as you move through that, that reverend designation is just to suggest that you have acknowledge and receive the call that God has given you into formal ministry. And so once you become a pastor of a church, most people will begin to call you pastor versus reverend, but it just depends on the person and kind of how they prefer to be called.

[00:03:22] Sarah Cavanaugh: So pastor refers to someone who is in charge of a church?

[00:03:25] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yes, in official leadership of a church, or they could be a staff pastor as well. They may not be the senior pastor, but they may be the pastor of education, or they may be the administrative pastor, something like that. So they do have a formalized role, uh, within the church.

[00:03:39] Sarah Cavanaugh: And reverend is more general term for someone who has had the call.

[00:03:43] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yes.

[00:03:43] Sarah Cavanaugh: Great. That's very interesting. Thank you for clarifying that. You are a pastor of a church, yes?

[00:03:49] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yes. Yes. The pastor of the Mount Zion Baptist Church in Austin, Texas. Our church this year, matter of fact, in November, will celebrate 151 years of existence.

[00:03:59] Sarah Cavanaugh: Congratulations. That's incredible.

[00:04:01] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:04:03] Sarah Cavanaugh: So tell me how faith shaped your childhood. For

[00:04:07] Pastor Daryl Horton: me, faith has always been a part. Even as a, as an early child, because my parents brought me to church and we were kind of forced because we didn't have much of a say so in it, but we were forced to do things like go to Sunday school in the morning, sit in the class, learning the Bible stories, doing those types of things.

We were forced to sit in church just because that's what our family did. And so I did that for a very long time. And it was probably closer to middle school or high school when I think faith really became real for me. It really became something that I could hold on to, something that I could define that it was a part of who I was.

And so it began to shape my behavior, shape my character, the things that I would do, the things I would not do. And I actually had a desire to live a life that was pleasing to God at that point. And so it wasn't until I graduated high school and went off to college, and that whole thing is another story about the circle of life in college and mistakes and all of that.

But it was, it was during my first couple of years of college that I felt and discerned a call to ministry. And so I came back home to Austin to go back to school here. And it was then that I formally announced my call into ministry. And so next year, that'll be 30 years ago. That I formally announced a call to ministry.

[00:05:20] Sarah Cavanaugh: Wow, that's fantastic. And in your church, parishioners come forward. It's something that's really from within, it sounds like. Yeah.

[00:05:30] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yeah. So the call to ministry is, is fascinating and it's somewhat mysterious as well, because I can remember when, when I wanted to do my, uh, announce my call to faith, the pastor I had at the church, I went to meet him and he said, I've been waiting for you.

And I said, well, what do you mean? And he says, I saw that call on your life and I've been praying for you that you would also see it. And so there are moments where as a pastor, that pastor can discern that there's a call on the life of someone, but we try to make sure that we don't. Push anybody or you don't do, you know, because again, if, if, if someone tells you that this is what it is, you may do it because of that versus you've had your personal conviction,

[00:06:07] Sarah Cavanaugh: what was it like to get the call?

[00:06:10] Pastor Daryl Horton: It was, it was interesting. It was scary. It was exciting. All at the same time. I can remember that I was at home. I was listening to radio show. My mom was a stay at home mom with us until we graduated high school, which was such a blessing to have her there. And so she and I would sit and listen to talk radio throughout the mornings.

And I can remember listening to a sermon of a very nationally known pastor on the radio. And for some reason, I just felt something in my spirit where I heard God say, that's what I want you to do. And of course, I'm having this conversation internally with myself going, you want me to do what? And so the conversation just grew louder and louder, and I toyed with it for a couple of weeks and just tried to pray about it, discerned it.

And then I went and met with my pastor for dinner one night and told him what I was feeling. And of course, he said, I can't make the decision for you, he says, but it sounds like. The Lord may be calling you into that place, but you need to pray and you need to be sure about it. And so I think it was about another week or two later that I just couldn't shake it.

I couldn't let it go. And so at my church, I came up at our, in most of your Baptist churches, they'll have a moment they call the invitation to discipleship, which is right after the sermon. And so. I remember that Sunday morning, I felt it, but I couldn't hide it any longer. I couldn't resist it. And so I went up to the front of the church and I sat down in the chair.

And when they came by, I told them that I felt like I was being called into ministry. And that's how the journey began. You sort of know what God is calling you to do, but you have no idea where it's going to go. And how do I learn? How am I going to? adapt to these things. And then especially being an introvert like me, I was like, that's the last thing I want is to be standing in front of people and doing those types of things.

And so it's been an amazing journey over these 30, almost 30 years and, and just amazing to see what can happen when you submit yourself to a call.

[00:07:58] Sarah Cavanaugh: So you mentioned briefly about college and I saw an interview where you talked about struggling a bit when you first went to college. And then you went on to get several advanced degrees.

How was that part of your faith journey?

[00:08:12] Pastor Daryl Horton: I didn't know it, but I think it was forming me to let me know that perseverance is a real thing and also to know that so is failure and that we can learn from that. And so, um, Sarah, I would say the quick version of the story is, is that I left home, I was admitted into Texas Christian University in Fort Worth at the last minute during the summer, right before the fall with conditional admission, I went to school.

I don't think I was ready for, for college level school. I mean, I did okay in high school, but nothing to brag about. And so when I, when I went to TCU, I tried to do everything that I could, but I ended up falling short and having to leave school early. And so I came back home, begin to get my act together and went to community college and then eventually received my bachelor's degree from what is now Texas state and San Marcos.

And so by that time I met my wife at TCU, we hang hung together in relationship. And so we got married while I was finishing up school in San Marcos. And from there. We finally came back to Austin again where I'm from and became more connected in the church and the church that I pastor now at Mount Zion, it was my predecessor that really pushed me and said, you need to further your theological education.

I think it'll be helpful to you. And so that's when I began. at Truett Seminary in Waco, and I was working full time at that time, and so that didn't work out, and I couldn't stay in school. And so, again, a Master of Arts from Austin Theological Seminary. And then once I did my Master's there, I was pushed again and found the Presbyterian Seminary here in Austin.

And so I did my MDiv there. And when I really thought I was done, because I was not a fan of school, but again, my pastoral predecessor and my counselor at the Presbyterian Seminary said, Daryl, I just want to tell you, I don't think you're finished. And so God has such a sense of humor that he would send me back to Texas Christian University to Bright Divinity School to complete my doctoral work.

And so, It's, it's been interesting.

[00:10:10] Sarah Cavanaugh: Yes, for someone who didn't like school.

[00:10:14] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yeah, I spent more than half my life in there and didn't, didn't think I would ever finish the first time. So yeah, it's been, it's been a journey of perseverance. It's been a journey of understanding how failure. And then I think it was also the idea of giving your all and giving effort.

I think. My initial undergraduate shortcomings were because of effort and focus. And again, sometimes we're just not ready for what it takes to study on that level. And so you mature over time and you begin to take things meaningful.

[00:10:40] Sarah Cavanaugh: Yeah, that's for sure. So are men only allowed to be pastors?

[00:10:46] Pastor Daryl Horton: In most of your Baptist churches, that is the belief. That's the norm. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:52] Sarah Cavanaugh: Yeah. So. Both of your parents are members of your church, which sounds wonderful.

[00:11:02] Pastor Daryl Horton: It is. It's something that a kid never dreams of, is that you'll end up pastoring your parents.

[00:11:07] Sarah Cavanaugh: And you have three siblings, including your older brother, who died two years ago.

[00:11:12] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yes.

[00:11:13] Sarah Cavanaugh: And how was that experience for your family?

What parts of your faith did you call upon personally to navigate that loss?

[00:11:22] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yeah, so that was, that was one of the closest realities with death that we've had in our family. And so, for me personally, was still a struggle because it's the loss of a loved one, it's your oldest sibling. But at the same time, I think we had time.

To be braced for it because unfortunately, my older brother was dealing with an addiction and it was eventually the addiction that he succumbed to. And so we were watching him over time, praying for him, trying to do what we could to be supportive of him. Uh, but eventually it got the best of him. And so again, we still have the.

The hurt and the loss. But I think we had time to prepare for it because we could see the signs based on behavior and based on how he was dealing with the addiction.

[00:12:07] Sarah Cavanaugh: So during his addiction, did you feel like you were experiencing kind of, uh, Premature grief, not premature, but

[00:12:15] Pastor Daryl Horton: No, I think that's a great question because there were moments where I felt like we were grieving ahead of time because I can remember we were working to have something of an intervention with him and it really came to the place where we sat down and had the conversation with him and said, Hey, listen, we, love you. And we want you to get better. We want you to get the help that you need, because we believe that if you don't get this help, it's only going to end one way. And that's not what we want for you. And so we knew that he had to want the help. He had to get the help. And so it was difficult to watch.

But at the same time, and again, I can't speak for the rest of my family, but for me, you kind of See where things are leading. And so you begin to deal with it. But, but there's still nothing like receiving that phone call that it has actually happened. And so you can think about it and prepare for it all that you can.

But when it actually takes place, and then you actually have to go through the funeral service and the burial at the cemetery, I mean, it, it hits a little bit different. But I think for me, my faith was a place to help me because again, I knew that yeah. Even though the addiction overcame him, I knew that he loved God.

I knew that he had made a commitment to Christ as his savior. And so I wasn't concerned about where he would be after death. It was just the fact that I knew about how much I would miss him here.

[00:13:33] Sarah Cavanaugh: Yeah, yeah. Were you pastor of the church at that time?

[00:13:36] Pastor Daryl Horton: We ended up having the funeral, I want to say just a couple of days after the church celebrated my first year.

And so it was a very interesting moment in time that we had a lot of family who was already coming in town to celebrate that first year. And then to know that they would be sticking around for a funeral two days later.

[00:13:55] Sarah Cavanaugh: Were you actually the officiant?

[00:13:58] Pastor Daryl Horton: I actually did officiate the service. I did not preach the eulogy.

His pastor here in town actually did the eulogy, but I did officiate the service, yeah. How was that for you? It was almost, it was like a sense of closure. And, and so what was interesting about it is, as a pastor, unfortunately funerals are what we do. And so you learn how to Deal with them. You learn how to be compassionate with the family.

But again, as most things, it hits a little bit different when that's your family sitting on the front row when that's your siblings and your parents. And so for me, it was a sense of closure because we honored his life. We celebrated who he was. The family came together and it was a great time of celebration.

I mean, we miss him and we were saddened about the way it happened. But like I said, for me, we were prepared. Because of the situation, and then in that moment, I think I sort of went into pastoral mode where I wanted to make sure that my siblings and my parents and my niece and nephew, I wanted to make sure that they were comforted and taken care of because I felt like I was at peace already.

[00:15:01] Sarah Cavanaugh: Yeah. Yeah. Oof. It's hard to lose a sibling, hey?

[00:15:07] Pastor Daryl Horton: It is. It really is. It's, it's definitely different from grandparents and aunts and uncles. I mean, they all take a piece of you, but, but yeah, siblings are different.

[00:15:17] Sarah Cavanaugh: How would you say they're different? You know, there are different kinds of losses that feels, especially for your parents, it'd be very difficult to lose a child.

[00:15:26] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yeah, I, I think for me, the losing a sibling is different because there's so much personal history that I have. There are so many memories that run through your mind about when you were younger, these things occurred. And as an older brother, how he did such a good job of trying to look after us and taking care of us.

And, you know, he was the first one out of the house, the first one to graduate college, the first one to have a real job. And so as younger siblings, we did our job and we would hit him up for money from time to time because he had a job and you know, how he loved us and supported us and would send us money.

And he was the one that. That dropped me off at college. When I first left, he drove me all the way to Fort Worth and dropped me off. I mean, so there's so many memories that you have with a sibling that even though you have memories of grandparents and aunts and uncles, these are different because you lived in the same house together and, you know, you shared meals together and depending on how your family grew up, sometimes you shared clothes that he had things that were hand me downs to you.

I mean, so there's so many things that are memories. And so for me, I think it's a little bit different. When you, when you think about that because of the closeness of the relationship.

[00:16:30] Sarah Cavanaugh: Yeah. What's one of your favorite things about him?

[00:16:35] Pastor Daryl Horton: One of my favorite things about him is that he was the one who was very daring, very courageous, uh, and he would get the rest of us in trouble for doing other things.

Um, my younger brother and I, we would travel with him because He played college football. We were football fans and he and my younger brother were also NASCAR fans. And so we were able to go to NASCAR at Daytona for the 50th running. It was the great celebration of 50 years. And so we were able to meet up and go to Daytona to do that and had great memories about that.

But I think our best memories are going to be whenever we would travel by car. We would not go past the city that had a major university without going to see the football stadium. And most often, we were there when the stadium was technically not open. And so we have those memories of going to certain places and like, Hey, there's the stadium on campus.

I wonder if we can get on the field. I wonder if we can go see it. And so you try to be creative to do some of those things. And so those are some of the things we still laugh about today.

[00:17:40] Sarah Cavanaugh: But I'm imagining you climbing a wall or

[00:17:44] Pastor Daryl Horton: well, thankfully we didn't have to climb any walls. I think, I think God may have been with us with grace because all the places we tried to get into some kind of way, the gate was open, there was a door open or whatever the case was.

And so we didn't have to injure ourselves getting in, but, but fantastic moments to be sitting on the 50 yard line of a nationally known college campus at a football stadium. And we're like, dude, we made it. And then we run out. So those kind of things.

[00:18:08] Sarah Cavanaugh: Your family reminds me of ours, although ours was for soccer stadiums instead of football stadiums.

And we would, the kids wanted to touch the grass. Of course, many of those, they don't want you walking out on it. Because they're so careful about how they take care of them. So you can touch it, but don't walk on it. Yeah, don't

[00:18:28] Pastor Daryl Horton: walk on it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's kind of similar depending on the stadium you go to.

They'll have the same rules in place. Yeah,

[00:18:34] Sarah Cavanaugh: exactly. Don't walk on the grass. Yeah. So are there any other deaths in your life that have shaped how you think about loss?

[00:18:43] Pastor Daryl Horton: That's a great question because I believe that each of them do. They all do in different ways. All of my grandparents on both sides are no longer with us.

And so, one or two of those funerals I did not get a chance to attend because I was a child. But at the same time, I still remember those moments. I remember how my parents responded. And then, over my time at Mount Zion, even though I've only been the senior pastor for the last three years. I've been on staff since 2008.

And so I've been a part of a lot of funerals and depending on how long the church member has been there and depending on the relationship that we have, each one of those feel different. And so I feel like I'm impacted by each one. I feel like some of those, the losses may feel deeper than others. I think each one of them, in a way, strengthens my faith because I see how the person lived.

I see how they trusted God with their faith and with their eternal, uh, destination. And so we can celebrate when they're gone because we believe what the Word teaches us is that when they're absent from us, they're, they're now present with God.

[00:19:51] Sarah Cavanaugh: What about your maternal grandmother? I hear there's a, there might be a little story around that and how your mother responded.

[00:20:00] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was probably a teenager, I think at the moment. And so my maternal grandmother passed away and I was still learning what it's like to grieve and to do those things. And I just remember that my mother responded during the funeral differently than many of her siblings. And it just.

perplexed me how she could be there and I didn't see her crying. I saw her just being strong and doing those things. And as a kid, you just say stuff, you don't know what you're doing. But at one point I walked up to her and I said, mom, I don't understand. And I said, that's your mother laying in that casket.

How could you not be crying? How could you not be sad? How could you not be as emotional as everybody else? And I just remember her looking me square in the eyes. And she said, that is my mother and I do miss her. And I just respond to this differently and in a way, she said, and don't you ever question how I feel about my mom just because of the way that I responded to this.

And so that was one of those moments where I really looked at her in a different light. And I understood how strong she was. And I understood where she was in her faith that. Even going to a funeral for her mother and the funeral for her father was the same way is that she understood that they lived a good life.

She understood that they had done what they were here to accomplish and that we believe that God does not make mistakes and that it was just time for them to go. And so she could. Missed them and she could honor them. And I learned that that didn't mean that she may not have cried at home, that she may not have had moments when she was by herself.

But in that moment at the service, that was the role she played. And so it was a, it was a, it was a real wake up call for me. And it was a turning moment for me when it comes to grief.

[00:21:45] Sarah Cavanaugh: Yeah. Well, I love the message of being non-judgmental. Yeah. Don't judge someone for the way they grieve.

[00:21:51] Pastor Daryl Horton: You know, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And that's been helpful for me a lot. Because again, as a pastor, I see a lot of ways that people grieve. Some of them respond like my mother and some of them are way on the other end of the spectrum. You know, I've seen people pass out. I've seen all the different things you can imagine seeing at those moments.

And so it prepared me for just the spectrum of how people deal with grief.

[00:22:12] Sarah Cavanaugh: Yeah. Beautiful. What are your Baptist funeral traditions? How would one participate in those? Say, I lost my grandmother. What would be the rituals in the Baptist church?

[00:22:25] Pastor Daryl Horton: They're usually pretty simple. We would work with you and your family to put together a service that usually would consist of scripture reading and prayer, and then most times there would be songs of some kind, however you'd like to do that.

There would come a place where the family members or somebody else would identify some people who would come up during the service and have words about the deceased person, and then toward the end of the program, the pastor or a minister from the family, whoever it might be, would be one to give the eulogy to talk about the person and to talk about honoring them and their legacy and talk about all those things, but also, Understanding that the eulogy is not for the deceased person, but it is for the family.

And so you're doing that to encourage them and to remind them about their family member. And so once we do the service inside of the church or wherever we decide to do that, then all of us would proceed to the cemetery for the internment and the pastor or the presiding minister would, we would have words that we would say over the casket.

And it's really quite brief. And so we would have our words, pray with the family, and then we dismiss from the cemetery. Sometimes the families will stay because it helps them with closure to actually see the casket lowered into the ground. And then there are other families that can't handle staying for that moment.

[00:23:38] Sarah Cavanaugh: I'm going back for a second to the eulogy because I love writing and authors and I've been interviewing authors for a couple of years now. And I love the process of writing as a healing, a way of healing. Do you have any advice? For writing a eulogy,

[00:23:54] Pastor Daryl Horton: I try to make sure that every eulogy, regardless of how well I do or do not know the person I wanted to be unique to that person.

I want people to leave the funeral believing that I had a personal relationship with that individual, even if I've never met them. And so what I do is I try to take the extra effort to talk with family members, to learn about the person if I didn't have a personal relationship with them. And then of course the obituary is always very helpful is to be able to get that and to read up on them and to figure out what they did.

And so what I try to do with every eulogy is to make sure that not only do I have. Scripture that I believe God led me to that's appropriate to the person. But every one of those eulogies is about the person, and it's also about how the family continues to move on in their absence and how God will walk with them.

[00:24:47] Sarah Cavanaugh: Beautiful, beautiful. So what does the Baptist Church say about the afterlife?

[00:24:54] Pastor Daryl Horton: We believe there is eternity. And that there's eternity, one of two ways. We believe that the Bible describes to us that there's eternal life where you spend it in heaven with God, where you spend there in heaven, where there is light and no more darkness, where there's no more pain and suffering and anguish and all of those things.

And then we believe that the Bible also teaches that there is also eternal presence in hell, where there is, based on the decision that we've made in this life, that that's also the eternal destination. So we try to teach people that eternity is going to exist. You just get to choose where to spend it.

And so that's kind of a rough generic way of how I would say that.

[00:25:31] Sarah Cavanaugh: And it depends on your behavior in this life, right?

[00:25:34] Pastor Daryl Horton: We would say that it's about your behavior, but it's more so about your belief and where you put your faith. Because we believe that the Bible really teaches us that Jesus came and told us that we must have faith in Him.

We must put our belief in Him. And when we put our faith in Him, our behavior follows. Because we want to follow His example, we want to live how Jesus lived, and if you really have been convicted and put your faith in Him, then your behavior will demonstrate that. We believe that you can't do enough work, that you can't do enough good to earn salvation, but it has to be faith and belief.

[00:26:07] Sarah Cavanaugh: So what is the role of prayer generally, and then specifically for you?

[00:26:12] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yeah. So the role of prayer is to nurture the relationship that an individual has with God. We believe that prayer is not a one way communication, but it's an opportunity for us to speak with God and that, and that God actually speaks in return.

It's a time for us to spend time, uh, with God, hearing God's voice, getting direction from God. But it's also an opportunity for. For calm and for peace. For me, prayer even goes deeper than that because not only do I have to do it as a personal human being, but as a pastor and as a leader, I'm praying about a lot of things that I would not have been praying about 10 years ago or even longer than that, because I'm praying about the direction of the church.

I'm praying about the leadership of the church. I'm praying about the sermons to preach and when to preach them. I'm praying about, as we discussed earlier, eulogies when those come up, I'm praying about all of those things that come with it. the leadership of the church, praying about my family, praying over my family, the decisions we have to make.

And so prayer becomes a place of peace, but prayer is also a requirement for me to do effectively the things that I, that I need to do.

[00:27:17] Sarah Cavanaugh: Lovely. Prayer is a place of peace. I'm writing that down. I love that. I love that. Yeah. Uh, so you serve as the board chair for Austin's Habitat for Humanity. I think you were on your way to a build when we spoke.

Yes, that's right. Do you connect community involvement to your faith?

[00:27:35] Pastor Daryl Horton: Absolutely. Sort of two fold. I think just as a believer, I believe that God calls us to make an impact in our community. I believe that God wants us to be out in the community helping people. And as a pastor, especially in the African American tradition, there's a legacy, there's a history of African American pastors being involved in the community, standing for social justice, and standing for civil rights, and standing for all of those things that take place. And for as far back as we can remember, the African American pastor has been that voice that stands on behalf of the church, on behalf of the community.

[00:28:09] Sarah Cavanaugh: Well, religion is often a barrier to connection. How can it be a bridge to people and communities?

[00:28:15] Pastor Daryl Horton: So in Austin, we have an organization that's called Interfaith Action of Central Texas. And so I served on the board and actually became the board president for a little while. And that helped me to understand that even though we may have theological, disagreements or we're not in the same place, we can still come together as people of faith, as leaders of faith and impact our community in a way that's positive.

Again, working on people's homes, raising money for refugees and for immigrants who are coming, providing programs where they can learn English as a second language. I mean, all those things doesn't require us to have theological agreement, but we can do those things because we love God or. Whoever God may be for you, and then I also just believe as as a person of faith, the way that I believe God wants us to conduct ourselves is that we ought to be knocking down more walls than we build.

And so there are sometimes I'm in the presence of people that don't agree with me. I'm in the presence with people who have no faith belief at all, but that doesn't mean that I cannot communicate with you. It doesn't mean that I cannot. Have a conversation with you that I cannot do constructive things in the community with you.

I just have to know where, where I stand in my faith and figure out where we can stand together.

[00:29:29] Sarah Cavanaugh: I love that. So you take an annual trip with a Rabbi friend who you met through this organization?

[00:29:35] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yes, we actually met through iACT. But the short version of the story is that he and I, through iACT, developed a relationship.

And because of the racial tension that we saw, we thought it would be a great idea to get our congregations to come together. Because again, if you go back through the history of our nation, there are times where Jewish Communities and African American communities came together in solidarity to talk about things like racial injustice and all those things.

And so he and I thought it would be a great idea for us to try to come together, bring our congregations together and maybe take a trip somewhere and to do something so that we might bond and learn each other's history and all of that. So we looked at trying to do it and turned out that would be very expensive to rent buses and to do all those things.

And so I remember him looking at me saying, instead of our congregations doing it, how about if you and I do it? You and I are going to take a road trip, and we're going to learn about each other and our faith traditions and all that. So, the first year we did it in 2018, we took a road trip through the South.

We spent six days, I believe it was, in the car together. And most people don't believe me, but we never turned the radio on, not once. And so, drove from Austin to Houston to see the, the Holocaust Museum, because I had never been. And to see the histories, the stories about that. Went to New Orleans, went to Selma, went to Montgomery.

We went to Birmingham. We went to Memphis, Tennessee, came back through Little Rock, Arkansas, and I mean, we stopped in all of those places and spent time, all those places where there are big monuments and museums and moments of civil rights. We went to go see all of those things. And so that was the first year we did it in the car, spent all that time together so that we could get him back for his Sabbath day on Saturday.

And then the second year, we didn't do it by car, but this time we went north. And so we spent time in Boston and in New York and some of those areas because there are a lot of untold stories about racism and about segregation that happened in the north. And so just to go to the harbor where the Statue of Liberty is and recognize that right across.

From the port where immigrants were welcomed in, there's another place where enslaved persons were brought in. You never hear those same stories. And to think about the stories of Wall Street and all these other things that took place and massacres that happened outside of Boston. I mean, the stories are just there, but they don't get the highlights that you would almost trying to give a story that the North was exempt.

From the slavery and the different acts that took place in the South. So we did all of those things because we wanted to learn with each other, but we also wanted to try to be an example to our congregations of what it looks like to spend time with people, to learn their stories and to learn what we actually have in common more than what we have different.

[00:32:11] Sarah Cavanaugh: Well, I love that because I grew up in the north and our history was taught that the south was

[00:32:17] Pastor Daryl Horton: yeah,

[00:32:17] Sarah Cavanaugh: the problem the problem.

[00:32:18] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and Sarah, I'll say quickly. One of the things that just really riveted me is that we were there. Um, I think we were in. Yeah, we were, we were near Wall Street and we were walking through the neighborhood and come to find out that there's a place where they discovered a burial ground and come to find out that stuff had been built on top of the burial ground for hundreds of years until it was rediscovered and even after they discovered it, only a small portion of it has now been saved.

Because the rest of it has had other things built on top of it. And so it's just one story after another about the lack of concern, the last lack of respect, especially for African American people, for black and brown people, for their deceased. I mean, it's just one story after another after you read it.

And just to know that it's not just secluded to one part of our nation, but it happened all over.

[00:33:12] Sarah Cavanaugh: I kind of wanted to follow that thread a little bit. Sure. In what ways can the church further that conversation?

[00:33:20] Pastor Daryl Horton: I'll speak about me as an African American pastor and person, one of the things that we think is still necessary is that persons of predominantly white churches need to help be a voice and to be able to acknowledge and to recognize the history of this nation, but also the history of the church and how the church has also been a part of the tragedies that we've had in the past.

And so that's a voice that's missing. And again, with many relationships that I have with white pastors of predominantly white churches, it can be a challenging place for them to be in, to, to talk about some of these things, to talk about racism, to talk about the history of the past of this country, because a lot of people don't want to hear about it.

They don't want to deal with it. And some. We'll have a conversation with their memberships, that that's not what we have you here for. We have you here to talk to us about the Bible, about God, about Jesus. We're not here to talk about racism and slavery and all those kinds of things. You leave that stuff outside.

It's a sad kind of an indictment that we have people in the church that we're supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, but they don't want to Dive into the full story and the full history of what it looks like to help us to recover and to heal and to do those things. I think the church has a role in that to be a mouthpiece of what it looks like to restore relationship, to acknowledge the things that have happened in this nation, to acknowledge our history and to even acknowledge that those things are still happening.

You know, we live in a very difficult political environment right now, and, and people in church are the same as everybody else. We don't want to talk about politics, and we don't want to talk about, and so, but, but those are hard conversations that we have to have, and that's how the church in general can help us to not be afraid to have those public discussions about what's right.

[00:35:07] Sarah Cavanaugh: So in Peaceful Exit, we talk a lot about legacy, and I think sometimes in a capitalist culture, we think of that as money, title, a building with your name on it, but we're really trying to expand that idea. You can have emotional legacy, a legacy of service, as you do healing. What legacy do you want to leave?

[00:35:27] Pastor Daryl Horton: One of the things that I strive to protect is the legacy and the heritage of the African American or the Black church. Our churches stand as a reminder of what it means to come together for community. That there was a time in our history where the church was the only place we had as a place of safety, as a place of learning, as a place of resource, as a place of education.

One of the things that I'm, that I'm working on at Mount Zion is that I want Mount Zion to preserve and cherish our heritage, our legacy as an African American church, while at the same time making sure that we are inviting to those, uh, who are not of the same culture. The reason I think it's significant for us to hold on to our culture is because I'm noticing that we have generations of children that are growing up in communities that are diverse, and I think there should be, but I think also at the same time as they're growing up in these cultures where they're not anywhere close to being the dominant, the dominant ethnicity or group, that they begin to lose part of who they are, and I'm learning that the church is the one place where they can come and be their full selves without having to try to hide, without having to suppress who they are or Without trying to be someone else, anyone is welcome to come to Mount Zion.

Anyone is welcome to be there regardless of who you are. You just need to understand that the way we worship, the things that are important to us, the conversations that we have are going to be centered around what it means to be African American in this culture. You know, this is the way we worship.

These are the songs that we sing. This is the way that I preach. These are the things I preach about. These are the stories I tell. This is the background I come from. And so just understanding those things, but making sure that we do it in a sense where it's still welcoming to others.

[00:37:10] Sarah Cavanaugh: Thank you.

[00:37:11] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yeah.

[00:37:12] Sarah Cavanaugh: What does a peaceful exit mean to you?

[00:37:15] Pastor Daryl Horton: My family is well taken care of and all the ways that we think of is that they, they won't have any financial hardships because of my transition, but that. They will have the resources they need to keep moving forward. My hope would be that. The daughter that we have is that she is well informed, that she is confident in who she is as a person, as a young woman, that she understands that she can go and achieve the great things that God has for her, and that my hope would be that We have placed things inside of her that she'll pass down to her children, that she, that she believes are valuable insights and wisdom that she's gained from us.

My hope would be that my wife would be in a place where her life was, was well lived because I was her husband, that she enjoyed every moment that we had together, that I was not perfect, but that every day she was glad she made that decision. And so that's, that's kind of what I think a peaceful exit looks like for me is that I accomplished everything that God had placed in my heart to accomplish.

And that is I love my family to the best that I could and that they miss me because I'm gone, not because anything was deficient.

[00:38:28] Sarah Cavanaugh: Yeah. Well, I have so enjoyed our time together.

[00:38:32] Pastor Daryl Horton: Thank you.

[00:38:33] Sarah Cavanaugh: Thank you so much for joining me.

[00:38:34] Pastor Daryl Horton: Yes, ma'am. My pleasure.

[00:38:40] Sarah Cavanaugh: Thank you for listening to Peaceful Exit. I'm your host, Sarah Cavanaugh. You can find me on Instagram at @APeacefulExit. And you can learn more about this podcast at peacefulexit.net. Our senior producer and editor is Katy Klein. Our sound engineer is Jeff Gall. Additional support from Cindy Gal and Ciara Austin.

Original music provided by Ricardo Russell, with additional music and sounds from Blue Dot Sessions. If you'd like to support our show, please follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, rate and review us wherever you listen. It really does make a difference. And as always, thank you so much for listening.