In this episode of Peaceful Exit, host Sarah Cavanaugh interviews Carole Fisher, who shares her deeply personal journey through experiences of grief, denial, and the healing power of community in the hit podcast The Girlfriends.
Carole discusses how she and her friends processed the trauma of uncovering that her ex, Bob, was guilty of murder, and how denying harsh realities served as a temporary protective mechanism. Carole's story is one of strength and resilience, as she embraces her past, from dating a murderer to overcoming the stigma of her husband's suicide. She also shares her work with the organization No More, and in hospice care innovation.
This podcast is produced by Larj Media.
Transcript:
Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Sarah Kavanagh, and this is Peaceful Exit. Every episode, we explore death, dying, and grief through stories by authors familiar with the topic. Writers are our translators. They take what is inexpressible, impossible to explain, and they translate it into words on a page. While normally we focus on authors, today I'm compelled to bring you a death care worker who decided to create a podcast called The Girlfriends.
Sarah: Carol Fisher. If you haven't listened to the podcast, You may want to do so before listening to this episode because we do reveal some spoilers. The Girlfriends is a story of how a group of women came together to bring down Carol's ex boyfriend Bob and sought justice for the murder of Gale Katz.
Carole: Welcome to Peaceful Exit. Oh my gosh, thank you so much, Sarah. I am a fan. I admire the space that you've created for these [00:01:00] meaningful conversations and thank you for having me.
Sarah: I imagine the conversation amongst the girlfriends was something during this project. It's been something.
Carole: You know, there there's been many Awarenesses and realities along the way.
Carole: Um, so, some of those look like me and Mindy coming to terms with the fact that Bob really did kill his wife and killed Gail. And I say that because I lived in a state of denial for a long time. I believed that that when he was convicted that I'm sure he did it, but I wanted to believe it was an accident.
Carole: And so I framed that story in my head to believe it was an accident. And the power of the stories we tell ourselves are so important to recognize and come to grips with. When I read the transcripts, when Mindy and I read those together, it was one of those gut punching moments where I had to now [00:02:00] face reality.
Carole: This was not an accident. That didn't justify it, by the way. Let me just say, you know, you kill your, you kill somebody, whether it's an accident or not, that's a horrible thing. But in my mind, it just was more accepting to think that I had spent some time with someone who was capable of murder if it was an accident.
Carole: So Mindy and I really had spent time talking that through and coming to grips with that. Um, so that's an example. Yeah.
Sarah: One of my beautiful mentors says we don't live in reality. We live in the stories we tell. And so it's almost as if for you and your mental health, you had to step into the reality. You couldn't like first tell yourself a story that, that what was true was true.
Sarah: You had to protect yourself in a way. And I think the brain does that to help us get through adversity. That the story you told about it being an accident was something that you could accept in the [00:03:00] moment. Um, and it took time to accept the full truth of the matter.
Carole: And when I became aware of that, It became a very cathartic experience for me personally.
Carole: So, I was able to start to come to grips with something that I wasn't able to, like, face before. And then with the success of The Girlfriends, it has been the most healing, powerful experience I think I'll ever experience in my life. Um, it's just been simply amazing because we all have these stories in our head and we have these experiences of real life and we shape those stories and sometimes I don't think we're as kind to ourselves as we could be, Sarah.
Carole: I'm not and I think that's a shame. So there was a lot of learning here for me that when you confront I call it, you know, taking out the trash. When you take out the trash in your head, um, and you really come to [00:04:00] terms with the mess, and we all have some, um, it's a really freeing feeling. So, yeah.
Sarah: Well, let's talk about Bob.
Sarah: Yeah. Your ex, uh, obviously, Bob, it feels like a main character in your story. At the same time, of course, that's the through line of, of understanding. whether or not Bob is guilty, but it's not really centered on him at all. And that's why I want to dig into some of the other threads. I, I love that editorial choice.
Sarah: How did that come about?
Carole: Well, that was Anna, you know, who wrote and produced The Girlfriends. I mean, I had certainly editorial rights and, you know, was able to contribute, but She knew that this was going to be a better story if we focused on everything but Bob. I would only agree to do it if we focused on everything but Bob.
Carole: I wasn't interested in [00:05:00] sensationalizing or giving him, um, attention and a voice. What was important for us is that we all came together to right some wrongs and to work together, um, as best we could. women near and far, right? East coast, west coast. And to give Gale a voice because she deserved one. And so, yeah, I think that really shines through in season, in the season one.
Carole: Season two is a little different. Um, season two, we give a different woman a voice and I'm really proud of that work we did too.
Sarah: So in the podcast, you meet a handful of women who dated Bob, as well as the sister of Bob's ex wife, who died of suspicious circumstances. How did those relationships come about and what are they like now?
Sarah: So
Carole: before the podcast, [00:06:00] in Las Vegas. For many years, we had this girls club. Um, you know, we often dubbed it Harriet the Spy Club. And my dear friend, Dr. Mindy Shapiro, um, she led this club. She was always curious about what had happened. So for years before Bob was ever taken to court and convicted, she was always digging in information and we would get together and have wine and, you know, have dinner and she'd like to talk about it.
Carole: My mother joined us. And there was another ex girlfriend of Bob's who's no longer alive that would join us. And, uh, there was lots of conversation and curiosity. On the East Coast, the vibe was very different. Elaine and her family and friends of Gayle's. were convinced that he, Bob, murdered Gail. And I had only seen Elaine from afar when I testified.
Carole: I had never met her. So the [00:07:00] first time that we met was over a Zoom call, but then I had the privilege of spending an evening with Elaine. She came to New Orleans and with some of her friends and we all went out to dinner and that was just lovely. And then we've been to her home. Anna from the UK actually came to my home at one point because it turns out in season two that the woman that we give a voice to, her family member, lives rather close to me, which is just odd in itself.
Carole: Um, and she's just lovely and has become a dear friend. So we got to know each other east coast, west coast through the podcast. And I would say that we are all very extremely close. The connections have been just. incredible. There, there's a significant bonding that's occurred and real friendships that have occurred through the girlfriends.
Sarah: In order to get clear about the story around Bob, you all told your own stories and this became a collective [00:08:00] story. So it makes me think about what we were talking about, about storytelling. You get together with a group of girlfriends, you each tell your own story about Bob, and this becomes a collective story.
Sarah: And I'm so curious if you think that made this podcast possible, really, because you've all sort of processed your relationships, your individual relationships with Bob together. I
Carole: think it made it possible. I think it, the reason, one of the reasons the podcast is so successful is because not only do we shine a light on domestic violence and understanding that women are not alone and men too.
Carole: I don't want to forget men in this, but mainly I think women have been the, the audience Um, it, it's been successful because there's this feeling of togetherness and collaboration and powerfulness that we're all together in this together and, and working in the, in the same way. And I think it's like moving forward in the same direction.
Carole: And I think at a time [00:09:00] of great divide, where not everyone's getting along real well, um, when it comes to, we'll just say politics and certainly sometimes religion. I think all boundaries were broken in this and it didn't matter. We were all searching for the same thing and that was to give women a voice that couldn't speak for themselves.
Carole: And there's, there's real power in that.
Sarah: I love the use of this word collective grieving, this phrase collective grieving, and I'm just curious if you found those Vent Sessions to be grieving sessions.
Carole: More so after the podcast. Um, for me, it was more curiosity and for Mindy, it was more, ultimate curiosity prior to the podcast.
Carole: So I'm going back almost 30 years, right? As we grew together and got to know each other, um, Elaine and Mindy and Anna and myself and, and, and look, Elaine's the one with the grief here. [00:10:00] I mean, she is, uh, an amazing woman. A badass is what I say to her all the time because she is, um, she works today, um, as an attorney, you know, working with people in the legal system who have been experiencing domestic violence.
Carole: So she is just someone that is filled with grief and joy all in the same hour because, um, she can never forget what happened. Yet she has a lot of joy in her life. She has a new grandson and she likes to talk about him and, and show us pictures and, you know, she'll text me pictures. But, so I think the grieving on my side really happened as I was doing this podcast and as I got to be friends with Elaine.
Sarah: Yeah, that makes sense. One of the things about Elaine that struck me is oftentimes in my conversations with people about traumatic events, they often are Like, the transition, the transformation that calls them to [00:11:00] what they were meant to do in their lives. And now she is serving people who have been victims of domestic violence.
Carole: Yeah, it's amazing that she's taken this tragedy and turned it into something that she fights for each and every day. Yeah. Justice for all. So I, I have great admiration for Elaine. She's a true mentor. She's a dear friend. And, and like I said, she's a badass. I just think she's great.
Sarah: Talk a little bit about red flags.
Sarah: When you were goofing around, you were drinking wine, you were chatting with the girlfriends. What were some of the red flags that came up for you? And even when you personally might be in a little bit of denial, there had to be some things that were like, huh,
Carole: Let's start with the red flags on my first date.
Carole: So, Sarah, I go on my first date with Bob and I say to him, look, you know, I'm, I'm a single mom with a child. I've got some [00:12:00] baggage. You know, how about you? You know, I've been married before. And he was extremely resistant to talking about himself. And I make a sarcastic, what I think was sarcastic, kind of flip comment that really turns out to be intuition.
Carole: I say to him, would you do murder your wife? And his response was, what do you know? What have you heard? Now, if that's not a red flag, date one, I don't know any other better red flag. He gets his thoughts together and he tells me this very elaborate story, a very elaborate story. Pathetic story as I look back to today, but at that time I wanted to believe him that he was wrongly accused, that she had a drug problem, that Gayle was a problematic person, that she cheated on him, that she liedblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Carole: And I'm You know, oh my gosh, this is my knight in shining armor. This [00:13:00] is a man who's the same faith. We're both Jewish. She has an airplane, um, uh, speaks five languages. I mean, he was extremely brilliant man. So I, I didn't want to believe that he murdered his wife, but that was my first red flag, um, into the situation.
Carole: As time went on and I dated him for such a short period of time, yet it seemed like a long period of time, um, there was, there were many red flags. His temper would flare rather quickly. There was a trunk in his house with Gale's name on it. There was just odd things about him. He seemed to all, like, to be about people.
Carole: everything on the outside, but nothing on the inside. So his outside of his home was, you know, looked great. As you walked in, it looked great, but there were certain parts of the home that were just empty. And so there were a lot of red flags. The learning for me that I would pay forward to [00:14:00] other women is that it's so important that we listen to our intuition.
Carole: It's just so important and that we can take anything. and make it what we want to believe. And I am certainly, Sarah, not saying that I've been cured of that, because I do it every day, I'm sure, to some degree, but never again will I allow that kind of depth of denial. enter my life. When people show you who they are, and Maya Angelou used to say this, right?
Carole: When they show you who they are, you've got to believe them. And so I knew that day one on that date. But I just didn't want to accept that. I wanted the doctor, the nice lifestyle. By the way, I have a great lifestyle that I've created by myself, and I'm with a wonderful man now, but you know, that's another thing.
Carole: Like, we can't [00:15:00] give our power away to another human being and think that they can fix us. And I think as women, we We tend to sometimes do that, especially my generation. I think younger generations are getting better at that. But, you know, thinking that a man will fix us and cure us and help us is, is not good thinking.
Sarah: You give listeners such a great insight into dating in the Jewish community in New York and then Las Vegas in the 80s and 90s and the, you know, that pressure to find this accomplished, solid husband and build a life seemed very real. Yeah.
Carole: Yeah, I think there's a lot of pressure on women in general, I think professional women.
Carole: Women who work in C suite positions like I do, um, I think there's a lot of pressure on different religions, uh, you know, for me being Jewish, I, and it's, it's probably passed on my generations, you know, these are old [00:16:00] messages. So the struggle is real, I like to say.
Sarah: So you mentioned this briefly in season one, episode two, that.
Sarah: You had been married before and that your second husband died by suicide. Is that something you're willing to talk about?
Carole: Yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. I'm not happy about it, but I'm pleased to talk about that if it helps other people.
Sarah: Yeah,
Carole: tell me the story. So I was married to a man my second marriage.
Carole: We knew each other for a really long, long time and kind of reconnected. Anyway, we got married and he had a lot of issues. He had drug and alcohol problems and gambling problems and, um, I, said enough is enough. I had to get out of that relationship. So it was shortly thereafter that he committed suicide.
Carole: So we were separated. Um, it, it was horrible. I, I feel horrible for his family. He had one son. [00:17:00] I mean, it was just a horrible period of time. I wasn't willing to assume responsibility for that suicide, if that makes sense, on an emotional level. Like, those were his problems. Um, and while I feel horrible about that, I haven't bought into the taking blame or having guilt about that.
Sarah: Yeah.
Carole: Did
Sarah: you suspect that your Husband, your second husband, was seriously depressed? I suspected
Carole: that he was desperate. I don't know if he was depressed. He was desperate. And he had borrowed money from his family. He had a significant drug problem. And I, and he was under the care of a psychiatrist. So I remember calling his family, calling his brother and saying, I'm very concerned.
Carole: And I remember kind of being [00:18:00] dismissed about that, but I feel like I, I did the best I could to get him help. I had heard through the grapevine he had a gun and he had actually showed up at my daughter's daycare and asked me to get in the car with him and talk to him and, um, I'm not sure what he would have done if I would have done that, but I didn't do that.
Carole: I said, no, I can't. And that was the last time I ever saw him. It's a really sad story. It's a really unfortunate story. I think that people who commit suicide, that's a mental health crisis. To me, it's a desperate act. It's also a very selfish act because everyone else is left to clean up the feelings and the pain.
Carole: the grief and the remorse and the, the baggage of that. But it, I experienced that and, um, it, it's a significant chapter in my life. And I will say this to you, Sarah, it wasn't a [00:19:00] chapter that I talked about that much. to people. I included it in a podcast. I wanted to make sure I was honest about my background.
Carole: And that was very healing in itself because I'm, I'm owning who I am. I've been married three times and I'm owning that today. And I dated a murderer and that's all okay today. But there was a lot of shame that existed for me in those stories, in those experiences. Yeah.
Sarah: So did that experience shape how you received Bob's story?
Sarah: Um, about Gail? The sort of your experience with your second husband's drug addiction?
Carole: I think that that experience has shaped how I've seen lots of things. But, you know, I've never really connected the dots on whether it influenced and impacted and shaped how I saw Bob. I think there was a long time in my life.
Carole: that I [00:20:00] wanted to see what I wanted to see when it came to relationships with men. And I wanted someone to, um, make me whole. And the reality is, is that I've had to make myself whole and that, um, there isn't anyone else that can do that work for us. So I think all those experiences have Um, shaped me, but I, the connection to Bob I never really made before.
Sarah: So what advice would you give if someone who had an experience of losing a loved one to suicide? What advice would you give at this stage, now that you've sort of, it's in the rearview mirror?
Carole: Yeah, I think it's really important to, to know that when someone takes their own life, that that's their choice, and that it's not someone else's fault.
Carole: There's a lot of guilt on the [00:21:00] surviving person's side. side, right? I think it's important to know it's okay to ask others for help. You know, create a community of connection, um, whether that's through counseling, which by the way I did a lot of, um, uh, whether that's just through other support networks, you know, I think sometimes we just don't ask for help.
Carole: And that's what I'm seeing on the domestic violence side, that people are shying away from asking for help. Um, and so what I would encourage anyone who's having a difficult time in their life is to know that they're not the only ones that battle those demons and those situations and that we have more in common than we don't.
Sarah: Great advice. Thank you. So Mindy's another great character in the story. Um, and there's a, Amazing moment in the last episode when Mindy talks about the legacy that Elaine created for Gail. [00:22:00] And we talk a lot about legacy here at Peaceful Exit, and I like to think of it broadly. And Mindy said legacy is how the people who love you remember you.
Sarah: And it's also speaks to what you said about you feel like you're Gail's voice now. What is Gail's legacy?
Carole: Ah, boy. Gail has touched so many people's lives and provided help for them and support for them. Um, she's a true role model. So I think her legacy is, is her work. And, you know, she wanted to go into psychology and, you know what, and then make that a career.
Carole: a better place and I think she did. And that's her legacy that her voice continues to move forward and that she's um, helping women get out of [00:23:00] bad situations, dangerous situations. And that's, that's, legacy work. Um, so I really believe she'd be extremely proud. Um, and I'd have to believe she's here somewhere with us, but I know that she's got to be proud of the fact that she didn't, she's not remembered as a victim.
Carole: She's remembered as a strong woman who was looking to solve a problem alone that really needed help. She needed help. And, and so she's teaching so many women how to ask for help. And so that's a real gift.
Sarah: Yeah. It's so natural to, to hear her story and say that would never happen to me because I would see the red flags or something like that.
Sarah: Um, and you, and you really showed us the forces at play that make it hard to see those red flags. Easy to ignore them. Hard to ask for help. Yeah, that could have
Carole: been me. I mean, look, I believed that he was not a murderer. I believed that, um, [00:24:00] he was a good guy who was just not seen correctly. And so If you murder one person, you can murder two.
Carole: Why did you break up with him, or did he break up with you? Oh, oh, God, no, the great story. He broke up with me. Can you imagine? I was about to break up, but he broke up with me. You know, I'm a very strong willed woman, just like Gail. Um, and, you know, I have strong opinions, and I say what's on my mind, and he didn't always like what I had to say.
Carole: So, um, We were in conflict for a long time. I just kept wanting it to work, you know? Jewish doctor had his own plane. I just wanted it to work. So
Sarah: was there a tipping point? Like something that he
Carole: couldn't stand? Um, well there was a tipping point that we went on a trip and he accused me of, um, giving him a sexually transmitted disease.
Carole: He had all these spots on his hands and we're in [00:25:00] his little plane flying. I forget where we were going. And, um, he wouldn't talk to me when we landed. I'm like, what the hell's wrong? And he holds up his hands and shows me all these dots. And I have no idea what he's talking about. And, you know, he did, he wasn't a man who liked to apologize.
Carole: So he eventually told me that, you know, it was some kind of something from the gloves you wear in the surgical room, um, as a plastic surgeon, but he accused me of it being, um, some type of sexually transmitted disease, which, like, that just wasn't the truth. So, anyway, this wasn't a man who liked to apologize and accept any responsibility for himself to this very day.
Carole: And, um, so yeah, he broke up with me shortly thereafter.
Sarah: So, when he broke up with you, Did you feel like that was a good thing or a bad thing? Or did you have any intuition about that? I knew it was
Carole: the right thing. But I didn't like it, um, [00:26:00] at that point in time, because again, you know, I wanted to believe this was my knight in shining armor.
Carole: But no, I, I totally knew it was the right thing, that we had to part ways. But it created a new situation for me. I was single again, and, you know, back out there looking for Mr. Right, so, um, if only we could, um, take what we know today, like, or if I could at my age, um, and apply it back then, things would be so much different, but, but they're not.
Carole: So, um, back then I remember just going, oh my gosh, I'm single again, and I've got, you know, I've got to start all over. Um, but it was a really good thing, and it was the right thing.
Sarah: Yeah. So I'd like to talk a little bit about domestic violence. Domestic violence is so pervasive it crosses all socioeconomic groups, gender, race, and you mentioned it earlier that one in three women and one in four men actually have experienced domestic violence.
Sarah: Is the system still rigged [00:27:00] against victims or how far have we come? Oh boy.
Carole: I think we have a long way to go. Um, I think there is still a lot of stigma involved. I think there's a lot of judgment involved. I think we've made progress, but I think we're still living in a time where we have a health crisis.
Carole: Um, it's a silent, silent war. epidemic of, uh, domestic violence being a real issue. And I like to add that one of the greatest things that happened out of the girlfriends for me is that I now could take that understanding and apply it to what I do today in my role as president for the National Partnership for Healthcare and Hospice Innovation.
Carole: Tom, who I mentioned earlier, who I thought should fire me, he said, you know what, Carol, we've got a real problem when it comes to elder abuse and neglect. So let's, let's give that a voice and let's [00:28:00] work on those issues on behalf of our membership. Um, and so we do that today. And I really, um, appreciate that we're generating awareness.
Carole: We've created a resource designed to protect vulnerable populations and educate the public on what domestic violence and elder abuse is and what you can do. And this is for our members. So we have 107 members caring for, I don't know, couple hundred thousand patients a day from hospice and palliative care perspectives and home health.
Carole: And so our members can use this to help them support. You know, the caregivers at the bedside, professional and non, you know, family members. So we want to ensure the safety and well being of the most vulnerable populations.
Sarah: You've done a lot of work for the elderly and this is a very serious issue in this country.
Carole: Yeah, well, let me tell you what I learned and I did not know this, um, so this comes out of [00:29:00] the girlfriends and when you talk about legacy work for Gail, I wouldn't know this if I hadn't been her voice. There's some startling information here. Nearly 5 percent of all seniors are subjected to psychological abuse in any given year.
Carole: And the World Health Organization reports that 320 million seniors will suffer from elder abuse by the year 2050. I mean, that's, that's just unbelievable, staggering information. One in ten American adults over the age of 60 have had some form of elder abuse. So this is a gift that just keeps giving in my life.
Carole: Um, the fact that I dated a murderer and the fact that Gail has become a dear friend, even though she's not alive, because we're able to reshape and rename and reclaim these experiences and put them into purposeful things. That's what I'm doing every day.
Sarah: Thank you so much for that. [00:30:00] You are an ambassador for the No More Foundation, which is dedicated to ending domestic and sexual violence.
Sarah: Well, No
Carole: More is a fantastic organization. Pamela Zambala is their president and CEO. She's out of the UK. They were founded in New York. Jane Randall, who's a another fabulous human being. They put together this organization so that They could put a stop and an end to domestic violence and sexual assault.
Carole: They increase awareness. They inspire action. They fuel cultural change. Um, they're all over it on a global basis and they're traveling everywhere and they created this ambassador program. And so I'm. I'm their first ambassador, which is just an honor. Um, I went over to the UK and attended a conference with all these heads of states and it's been fabulous and um, I will do anything I can to help them.
Carole: I will say to you that the girlfriends had such a wonderful impact [00:31:00] that women would go to their website and ask for help. Well, we weren't sure if it was all women. It could have been men too. But their numbers went up significantly in the thousands of people who went over, searched on their site, and asked for resources for help.
Carole: They were able to track that. So, um, they're doing just tremendous work. You know, I, I'm in all of their commitment each and every day.
Sarah: So if I were someone Who is experiencing domestic violence and I wanted to be anonymous because I'm terrified of coming forward. Would that be a place I could go and still remain anonymous?
Sarah: Absolutely. Absolutely. You just
Carole: go to their website, nomore. org. Um, they have great resources and they'll, they'll link you to other resources if, if they don't have them for you. Not everybody wants to come out and talk about the fact that they're in an abusive relationship or they, had been in an abusive [00:32:00] relationship.
Carole: So, anonymity is really important.
Sarah: Yeah. We'll be sure to put a link and then show notes about it. You said that shame was a key emotion for you because you unknowingly dated a murderer, and This culture tends to be quite judgmental, and they might judge you for dating a murderer, they might judge you for being married three times, um, or even in not wanting to testify in this case.
Sarah: Did you ever get cold feet about sharing your story? Oh yeah,
Carole: well, I never got cold, it's funny, I never got cold feet about sharing my story because I didn't realize how many people would listen to it. I think had I known the impact it would have had, I may never have. Agreed to do it. It's really fascinating, but I didn't understand.
Carole: And so, like I said a week before I, I When I was told millions of people, not [00:33:00] just a couple hundred or a thousand were going to hear this, I just, I really went into meltdown mode and I remember talking to my girlfriends and my daughter and my mom and saying, what the hell have I done? done. I've just put my entire personal life out there for everyone to hear.
Carole: I'll never forget that week. It was really hard. And then a couple weeks into the podcast when everyone is so excited about the podcast and reaching out to me and wanting to do interviews and wanting to like know me. And, and I started to go, Oh my gosh, my story is just like everyone else's. We all have baggage and we all have shame and we all have situations that we regret and we all have different kinds of grief in different situations.
Carole: And so it's been the most empowering time of my life that, um, I would encourage. [00:34:00] everyone to, you know, not take these mistakes we make and label them as bad, but just label them as part of a chapter of our lives. They don't need to define us. The mistakes we make do not need to define who we are as human beings.
Sarah: Beautifully said. Brené Brown says, shame loves secrecy. And that's not the exact quote. But shame loves secrecy. So by telling your story, it's no longer a secret and it no longer holds the same power. It doesn't
Carole: own me anymore. These, these stories do not own me anymore. And it's a most freeing. experience I've ever had in my life.
Carole: And, um, I'm willing to talk to anyone to help them resolve their shame and guilt and embarrassment because I know the power of, of just being able to sit up a little taller and, and just feeling complete in my heart that I didn't do things wrong. I just made some [00:35:00] mistakes along the way. And yeah, I've been married three times and I dated a murderer and, you know, I, I have a husband who committed suicide.
Carole: I've done so many things that are wonderful. Like I've done so many great things in my career and always looking to pay, pay it forward. Um, and I've helped so many people. So, you know, you have to take the good and the bad of who we are, the mistakes and the, the good things that we do and, and, you know, reconcile them.
Carole: Um, and I call it taking out the trash. Just, we all have trash. Take it out. Own the junk, you know, and, and, uh, tell your story and tell it in a way that you're proud of yourself and you own it and tell it in color. It doesn't need to be black and white. I'm, I'm really happy to say that I think I've come to terms with a lot of my shame.
Carole: I will say when you mentioned the husband who committed suicide, I did take a gulp. Um, [00:36:00] you know, there are. They're, it's not a perfect situation where it's like I always feel perfect about myself, my goodness, not. But, but for the most time I can recognize that these are just small chapters in my life.
Carole: They don't need to define who I am as a total human being.
Sarah: Yeah, I would encourage you to pick a few fence posts that aren't like the failed marriage or a you know, dating a murderer. Like, what would you stick in between in your story that are like celebrations and things that you have really, you've really given back to obviously with this podcast and know more and being an ambassador and that's a, that's a big one.
Sarah: Yeah. Are there any others that you feel especially proud of? Oh my gosh,
Carole: I, I've spent my entire working life in social impact causes. Um, I've been in mental health. I've, I've, worked running large ambulatory care center clinics, um, and then end of life care. And I'm very proud of the work that I've done in end of life [00:37:00] care.
Carole: I ran a very well known, not for profit, mission driven organization in Las Vegas, Nevada. Um, and now I'm, I'm, privilege to, you know, be a service president for this national membership organization where we have 107 members. They're all mission driven, community owned, not for profit organizations. We help them with innovations.
Carole: We help them with policy work, we help them with education, we help them right the wrongs that are happening in hospice care today, where we're just overrun with private equity, the dollars coming into our space. So I'm very proud of all that work. And I'm proud of the fact that I've been bedside with people who, um, I didn't know and I've helped them die well.
Carole: And, um, yeah, so I'm, and I'm proud of the mom I am. I have a wonderful daughter who's doing great things. I mean, yeah, there's many things that I'm [00:38:00] proud of, but you know, don't we tend to go to the negative first? Um, I do. And, uh, I don't think I'm alone with that.
Sarah: No, certainly not. Um,
Carole: what's next for you? Um, I would say that my podcast career is complete.
Carole: Um, I'm excited that I tried that and did that. I've made some good friends. I learned a lot. Um, I will continue working, um, as president for MPHI. But I'm also, um, doing more speaking, public speaking, more motivational speaking, especially to women audiences, and I'm doing more executive coaching. And I'm really excited about those opportunities, um, to work one on one with women who sometimes I see more in them than they see in them.
Carole: And so I love bridging that, uh, gap for them. So yeah, I'm busy. I'm also, you know, I'm a grandmother now and I've got a very active, life in my home and, you know, personally, so I'm pretty busy right now.
Sarah: That's [00:39:00] fantastic.
Carole: Yeah.
Sarah: So you were talking about your national organization and the question that popped into my brain was, can you help our listeners understand what is hospice innovation?
Sarah: Oh,
Carole: yeah. So to me, hospice innovation and to the colleagues that I work with is that it's time to take a benefit that's over 40 years old and modernize it. And we're modernizing that for a couple reasons. One is that that benefit was originally intended to help people with just cancer. And as you know, since you've talked about hospice on your podcast, um, you know, many people access that for a variety of reasons, not just cancer.
Carole: Also, There are loopholes in the benefit that allow for significant fraud and abuse, and so we're addressing that. in D. C. at the congressional level and, and working with the Center for Medicare and Medicaid. And so Hospice Innovations also has to do with [00:40:00] making sure that our members are relevant and necessary for many years to come.
Carole: Our members have been the first ones in the home, Um, they've been in business for over 40 some years, and we want to make sure they're the last ones in the home. And there's a lot of folks innovating around the benefit, um, and there's nothing better than hospice and palliative care done the right way, uh, for the right reasons, by the right people.
Carole: So, making sure that, um, Our members have the tools they need, the resources that they need on all kinds of levels to make sure that they're the last ones in the home, um, at the end of the day. But I always say hospice is what's right in healthcare. Um, it's a wonderful benefit.
Sarah: So, these are the people that are showing up at the end.
Sarah: How do we support them?
Carole: And how do we support the families after their loved one is no longer alive [00:41:00] and our members do such a great job with that, you know, providing care and support, um, emotionally for people is just so important.
Sarah: So your members are Actual hospice groups? Providers. Providers. Yeah,
Carole: they're providers.
Carole: They're
Sarah: providers of care. Yeah. So the 107 represents a lot more than 107 people. It's the 107 organization. Yeah. Okay.
Carole: I just want to clarify. Caring for a couple hundred thousand patients a day collectively. Got it. So yeah, so it's, it's amazing.
Sarah: That's beautiful. Well, given all of this incredible work you're doing, is there anything that you want to talk about that you haven't talked about yet?
Carole: You know, I think paying attention to our intuition. I think being present for others. I think walking with other people versus just being on the sidelines. I think that's important as we mature and grow older. you know, messages for, that I have wishes for people [00:42:00] would be that. Um, but no, my gosh, I think you covered everything so well.
Sarah: Well, I'm going to ask you the question which I ask all my guests. What does a peaceful exit mean to you?
Carole: A peaceful exit for me means that you just let go and you trust that the universe has your back and that, um, your, your job here on earth is done. Um, look, I've been in end of life care for a long time and I've seen some really good deaths and I've seen some not so good deaths.
Carole: And I think coming to terms with who you are as a person and your values and what you stand for. And mending fences with people that, um, you feel wronged by, or you wronged, or, you know, just taking care of business, um, allows for just a really nice, peaceful exit from this plane to another. [00:43:00]
Sarah: Lovely. It has been a pleasure talking to you today.
Sarah: so much. for listening to Peaceful Exit. I'm your host, Sarah Kavanaugh. You can learn more about this podcast at PeacefulExit. net, and you can find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram at A Peaceful Exit. If you enjoyed this episode, please let us know. You can rate and review this show on Spotify and Apple podcasts.
Sarah: This episode was produced by the amazing team at Large Media. You can find them at larjmedia. com. The Peaceful Exit team includes my producer, Katie Kline, and editor, Corinne Kiltau. Our sound engineer is Sean Simmons, Tina Ngo, and I'm is our senior producer and Sid Gladue provides additional production and social media support.
Sarah: Special thanks to Ricardo Russell for the original music throughout this [00:44:00] podcast. As always, thanks for listening. I'm Sarah Kavanagh and this is Peaceful Exit.